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Tough Leadership Conversations:  Conversations on Mental Health as a Leader (download transcript)

Adam Lacey

Welcome to the Tough Leadership Conversation series. I'm Adam, the co-founder of Assemble You, the audio learning experts, and I'm joined by Ruth Farenga, Executive Leadership Coach, TEDx speaker, host of the Conscious Leaders podcast and author of the brilliant Next Level Leadership. Together, we'll examine how to navigate some of the most challenging workplace discussions.

Think pay rise requests, performance reviews, managing managers, dealing with divergent views, and talking about mental health. Unclear communication can lead to an erosion of trust, staff absenteeism, a breakdown of relationships and a decline in performance, so getting these tricky conversations right is absolutely essential.

This series is as much about reflecting inward as a leader as it is about your day-to-day management practices and techniques. In this series, we'll discuss approaching situations with a positive intention. Fundamentally, we get the most out of individuals when we concentrate on what's working rather than what we perceive to be broken. So, with that in mind, let's get started.

So Ruth, what are we talking about today?

Ruth Farenga

We’re talking about having difficult conversations around mental health.

Adam Lacey: Yeah, this is a really tricky one for managers for a number of reasons. Maybe let’s start with a bit of context here, Ruth. Why is this so important, and what's happening in the world, I guess, to mean that we're talking about this today?

Ruth Farenga: I think this can be quite a sensitive subject for a lot of people—both from a manager’s perspective and an employee’s perspective. It’s really difficult for managers to know how far to step into the world of a person who may be experiencing a mental health issue.

So I think probably what we'll talk about today is a little bit around those boundaries—how to know when to like step in and talk to them about things and what the kind of considerations are that help you be the biggest support you can without going too far as well, you know, how do you create that balance?

Adam Lacey

Yeah, exactly. And it's a topic that is in the news, that is talked about a lot more now than it was when I started working 15 years ago, for example, I don't ever remember having a conversation around mental health in the workplace 15 years ago.

And so, you know, I think society has moved on. We've come a long way, but it's also an enormous problem. So a couple of stats that we found part of our research for this is from the World Health Organization.

An estimated 12 billion working days are lost every year to depression and anxiety. So it's an enormous amount of productivity loss because of poor mental health.

And then, a Deloitte survey—they’ve done one in 2024 and 2021. In 2024, 63% of respondents said they're experiencing at least one characteristic of burnout, an increase from 51% in the 2021 survey.

So the context here is, unfortunately this is not a problem that's going away. This is a problem that is frankly getting worse as life becomes ever more complicated. And it's very much now within the remit of the manager, of the leader, to kind of be having these conversations where I guess a couple of decades ago, it almost wasn't, or it wasn't expected of you as a leader to kind of take on this role. And I think that the pastoral element of managing, of supervising, of leading, is different now to what it was a while ago.

Ruth Farenga

Yeah, I think you are really right there in terms of what the role of a manager is. Now, of course, there's a certain amount of personal opinion related to your leadership or management style, but I think the onus is on you to be aware to some degree and to be supportive to some degree.

A hundred percent. And again, you know, we talked about these performance discussions as well. This is not a distraction from your job as a manager, a leader; this is your job. That doesn't mean you're their therapist, doesn't mean you have to spend hours and hours trawling through their, you know, past traumas. But it does mean we can spend dedicated, focused time checking in with how people are doing and how we can support them through this difficult period that they may be in.

There can be some nerves around going into these conversations, and I think, as long as you don't expect yourself to be someone's therapist, that's okay. But you do need to be there for them. That's the kind of balance I think leaders need to strike.

Adam Lacey

Let's just run through quickly why this is such a difficult topic to talk about, right? Why, you know, whether you as an individual talking about it with your manager, or you as a manager trying to have a conversation like this with someone in your team. What are the things that make this so tough?

Ruth Farenga

Like pay, like performance, like a lot of the issues we are discussing in this series, there can be a lot of fear with bringing this up with your manager and feeling very vulnerable at work that you want to, maybe you don't want to admit that you are having issues or at least not at work.

So I think if you are spotting this in an employee of yours, that sort of recognising how difficult it may be for them to share at all. It really depends on the personality we're dealing with because some people will be the other way, you know, really open, which is a different kind of challenge as well.

But if they are quite shy about things and you know, sort of recognising fear involved in that, maybe the fear from your side as well. All those things are okay. They're not ideal, are they? We don't like feeling fearful, but if you're feeling a bit nervous about this conversation, probably the other person is, too. And you can kind of hold that with compassion that this is difficult for both of us.

Adam Lacey

Fear's the big thing here. Fear of either, yeah. Being too open, not being open enough, almost fear. That what someone says could impact their chances of a promotion of kind of moving up the ladder. I think that's a real big one. It's like, I can't admit weakness, otherwise I'm gonna be overlooked next time the chance of a promotion comes up. I guess there's also this, I guess this is definitely more of a modern phenomena in many ways, but this kind of turn back to masculinity, strong-man-can't-admit-defeat-can't-admit-weakness type mindset as well, which is dominating some of the world's politics at the moment. But then that genuinely feeds down into society. And actually, is it okay to show that you are weak at work? And I think a lot of people are questioning that as well. And so there's a lot of factors at play here. There's our old friend, psychological safety, you know, are you in a safe space where you can actually talk about things?

It's a really complex web of things that makes this a really difficult set of conversations to have. But because it's so difficult, I feel like this is something that we absolutely need to talk about. And if you have any kind of worries or concerns about the people you are working with, then, you are better to do/say something than to kind of sit on your hands. Yeah. And whether that's you going to your manager or you as a manager going to your team.

Ruth Farenga

Yeah. Maybe we can talk about this from the kind of polar perspectives of those that are really nervous to share but those that are very open because we're seeing a lot of Gen Z who are very open about their mental health and it can feel, I think, intimidating for some managers that they are quite literate in this stuff.

So maybe we can talk to both personas here that we may be dealing with. The people in the middle are probably nicely open in a light way and it's fine, but we've got those extremes where it's harder.

Adam Lacey

Yeah, that's great. Cool. So let's get into that. So, you know, what should we be doing here?

Say, let's use the Gen Z divide because this is a real good one. I've got someone who works for me. He's very open, very literate about that mental health and what they're struggling with. I am from an older generation that doesn't like to talk about this stuff at all, or actually just finds it very awkward because, you know, this kind of stuff wasn't said in my day and you know, what I'm saying here isn't far away from my actual truth.  It wasn't my experience when I started work, but these were conversations that people had. So as a manager, I guess, what do you do here? How'd you get this right?

Ruth Farenga

So if someone is really literate around their mental health or at least very open, I think this is a great thing. It's a great starting point. It can feel intimidating for those of us who are not so literate and maybe even about our own mental health.

But if they're confident, if they're talking about their mental health days that they need, or they’re the kind of pressures on them that they're aware of their stress levels, I would really be as open as possible to this kind of literacy that they've developed. Now, sometimes, not always, but sometimes people can over talk about mental health problems. Now I have to be very careful in saying this because obviously a lot of people don't talk enough, but some people can overtalk so you'll know when this is from in a healthy way and it feels very constructive and you can support them in any way you can. It might be that you just need to do a lot of listening and they know exactly how to handle it. Exactly that they need a half day off and they need to work on their habits more thoroughly and they need to talk to some key friends. That, you know, they might know all this already. So your role becomes much more of a coaching role; to really just listen, support, reflect back what you're hearing. Basically, you don't need to do very much. This is really kind of really great opportunity for you to learn from them, for you to listen and coach. Ask good questions and just listen.

Now, occasionally we get someone who is, you feel like maybe they're indulging or wallowing in the problem too much. Again, really difficult line to tread, but is worth being aware of if you're noticing that. Now, it might be that you have to create some boundaries around when they talk about it. So you might have structured time each week where you're like, “Why don't we spend the last 10 minutes of our one-to-ones just checking in your mental health” because they've raised it as a big issue. You don't wanna spend the whole meeting talking about it, assuming they're not signed off work or whatever it may be.

So whether it be at the beginning of the end, you are giving them like structured space where we are like, “Let's take this full 10 minutes, full 15 minutes on a regular basis and let's check in and then maybe we can move on to the work chat because we've had a chance to really tune into where you're at.” We're also not going on for like the whole hour necessarily. It doesn't mean you can't take an hour periodically, it's just that we don't wanna be doing it throughout our week in extended ways because that isn't our role. We do need to be referring on to therapists. Or maybe you have an employee assistance programme that has opportunities for that, and there might be other people in the business that can support them too.

Because I'm aware as a manager with lots of people experiencing mental health issues, it can feel like it's becoming a really big burden for you. So you have to watch your own mental health in those circumstances and try and navigate this period as best you can so that you can create some balance. I feel like I have to be really careful when I say this stuff because it is a tightrope to walk, and if you are in this situation, then you know, it is tough. So recognise that.

But seeing what boundaries and structures you can create so the person feels supported, but not in a spewing into everything they do. Unless they need to be signed off, in which case, that might be the skillful thing if it really is taking over every day of their working life, basically.

Adam Lacey

Yeah. And every situation is completely unique. And it's quite tough for us to talk in generalisms because every individual comes with this from a very different set of background and different way of dealing with things as well. So it is tricky, but I like that a lot.

Support and reflect, listen and coach, be conscious and just be aware if there is maybe an overindulgence or wallowing. And if there's a smart way to help manage that practically, by the way, which I really like, is create some boundaries and give that structured space for those.

Ruth Farenga

Really, it's a therapist's place to really help them, you know, change those patterns of behaviour.

Adam Lacey

That was gonna be my next question actually. If you find yourself in a structured space, I like that term, and someone is having a conversation with you, you just maybe talk a little bit about what your role as manager is there and you, if you hinted at it, it's not, it's not to be their therapist, is it? That's important.

Ruth Farenga

Yes. You're not their therapist, but you are a really important individual in their life that they maybe see most days. So that means that your supportive role is important. It is. And that's the tightrope you're walking.

Adam Lacey

Yeah. And so it's more, and I guess one of the things that it is more about listening, reflecting, less about trying to come up with solutions to problems. But then actually, you've got a really interesting example, I think, from your podcast, about Grace. You came up with a solution for a scenario like that. Maybe worth just touching on that.

Ruth Farenga

Grace was a senior leader at Accenture Song UX design, part of Accenture, at the time of interviewing. I asked them what it was they did when someone was struggling with stress in their organisation and how they dealt with it when they came to them with a real big problem like this. And Grace said that this was really about removing the immediate stresses as much as you can.

So they said, so why don't we, for the next two weeks, take away 50% of your workload. Let's focus on the basics here. Let's focus on the essentials. This stuff here I can take, or we might be able to give to another team member just for a short period. And I think the words they used were, “Give them a chance to come up for air”. Perhaps this work has just got on top of them and it's all got a bit too much and they can't see the wood through the trees anymore. So what can we do to relieve that pressure in the short term? That enables them to just think more clearly. A lot of us, you know, when we're stressed, whether it be a personal thing or a work thing that's causing it, we just need the responsibility to go down a bit for a period so we can regain our footing and regain our perspective.

And that might involve taking the rest of the day off, even the rest of the week off. Depends how bad it is. And I think the point about listening is really key. What do they need right now? They've come to you with this issue, so you are privileged, you know, that people don't, or we talked about maybe the really open-hearted Gen Z, but we also need to talk about a large proportion of people who are not open with their mental health at all in general.

So when they come to you, this is a massive thing. So we really need to listen to them deeply. We reflect back, we summarise what we're hearing. We spend some focused time really honouring that they've shared something important with us, and that you're very privileged. And then really ask what they need from you. How do they want you to support them? Has this conversation been good and they just want someone to listen to sometimes? Do they want signposting to anything? Because quite often a lot of the troubles are coming from the fear around the problem. So I feel shameful that I have this anxiety, this low mood. So the fact that I've expressed it to you and you hold it lightly and you go, ”Wow, that sounds like a really big deal. Yeah, just tell me more. What else is going on?” So you're kind of bringing your full self self to that conversation as best you can. And that can be hard, right, in our busy world, but zeroing in on them and then really show them this kind of strong intent we've talked about in other modules.

You care about them, you care about their development, and you want what's best for them. So hone that intent and hone your confidence in them that this eventually will pass. Might take weeks, months, we don't know, but you believe in their ability to get through this. It doesn't mean you're brushing what they've said under the table, but you also see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think, I mean, from my own experience of low mood and anxiety, our perception really narrows and we get very, like tunnel vision. We can't see the possibilities. So having someone else really believe in us, eventually this will pass, is really powerful. So bringing that intent and then I think we touched on this before, you know, share your story if you have one. Maybe you've had a really tough time you've been through and you've had all sorts of treatment or support or whatever it may be. And you know, if you open up, you will alleviate a lot of the pain they're experiencing. You know, especially if they're nervous about it, because they'll know that you are human just like them and you can talk to that and that will be really appreciated by them.

Adam Lacey

It can feel very lonely when you're going through something like that, a particularly bad, you know, episode and you know, you feel like you are the only person feeling this right now. And actually it's really nice to know that you're not alone. And there's other people in similar situations, your own boss or whatever who, who may have also had something similar. So I like that.

Hold the space; give them the time. Reflect back, and then ask the question. Or just try and get to the bottom of actually what would help. And I think maybe, you know, don't just suggest loads of stuff. Well, could we do this? Could we do that? Could we do that? This is a far more nuanced conversation and it's understanding what's really driving this? What's really sat behind it? And is there anything you can do? You know, is it just something they have to work through themselves? Is it something you have to signpost them to help for professional help? Or is it actually, “Oh, actually, yeah. You know what? If I take you off this big project that is causing a lot of this anxiety, would that help?” Or if you have a break from it, or whatever it is. And so if there is something in your gift, then with that very active listening that you're doing, that intent, if there's a solution that you can offer, then offer it.

Ruth Farenga

And sometimes we can use a rating scale. And say, if 10 is the best you've ever felt and zero is the worst, where are you out of 10 right now? Because I think that when someone's not doing very well, we need to know if there are two, right? Because they might need to be signed off, or if they're actually a six, and this is more just, I'm a bit below par. I don't need to maybe come off my project, but I do want some regular check-ins where we can have these listening conversations that help me and I might better just recover the challenges I'm having with particular team members or the things might resolve at home.

You know, I think, using a rating scale that allows people to, you know, articulate to themselves where they're at. And to you so that when you have those conversations you can always check in again and be like, “Okay, so how's today outta 10? How are you feeling? Like, you know, last week you were a two. Where would you say you are now?” “You were a six”. Like, and that is helping us knowing what direction people are going in, in the mental health department. So we're not just, people are, “Oh yeah, I'm fine.” “I'm good.” You know, because I don't know what good is, or I don't know what bad is. I need to know where this is for you on the spectrum of how you feel in your life.

Adam Lacey

Yeah. That's another really strong point.

Let's talk a little bit more about the people who won't naturally share this who are maybe less literate around mental health and will potentially become quite defensive or difficult if you try and have a conversation like this. Yet, maybe you spot that something's not right, or you hear that something's not right and you feel that you are due to your obligation to kind of have a conversation. How do we approach that particularly tough scenario?

Ruth Farenga

Yeah. I guess if we spotted it three times it’s enough that it's you're like, “Hmm, something's off here”. Then we wanna catch it early. Bit like we were talking about in the difficult performance discussions. It might also be impacting the performance. You know, catch it really early.

Take them aside, have a one-to-one, and reflect back what you're noticing. Like “I'm noticing normally you're really confident in meetings. The last few meetings I've noticed that you seem kind of unsure of yourself, and I'm wondering if you are okay”. Get it early. I think that's the really important place to come from so that you are in early before this escalates.

Adam Lacey

And what kind of signs should we be looking for, do you think? How do we know when this is a good time or the right time? You said you mentioned something happening three times. I quite like that as a bit of a rule. Is there anything else we should be looking out for? Is this very much a gut thing? It's like, actually, my gut says something's not right here.

Ruth Farenga

Yeah. Anything that's off, like someone being angry in a meeting, someone being rude. Yeah, anything that's out of character, then I think it's worth raising. They might just say, “I got out of bed the wrong way this morning. I'm sorry. That was a bit of a nasty way to talk to that person.”

You know, it might be a really quick thing, and it's great that you are on that. It shows that sort of behaviour is not appropriate, but you are coming in a caring perspective, so you are bringing a lot more compassion and kindness if you think this may be a mental health thing behind this. So I think that's important.

Adam Lacey

Yeah. Yeah, I like that actually. And yeah, you may have spotted something and there may be a very trivial almost answer to it. You know, speaking of someone with three young children, if I'm ever off kilter a lot of the time is because I haven't had enough sleep. And the extent of the problem is sleep deprivation, but then sometimes it may be something a lot deeper. It may be something more serious and might be something that actually someone is waiting almost to be asked about. So I think giving them the opportunity.

Ruth Farenga

Absolutely. Sleep is huge, isn't it? It affects so many of us and often it's because we're worrying about something at night or we have three children that get up at different intervals. Like you, Adam, bless you.

Adam Lacey

There's that one. Yeah. But no. Yeah. Mental health and sleep very, very closely related, aren't they? In fact, you know, the more anxious you feel, the harder it is to get to sleep. The harder it is to have a good night's sleep or all the rest of it. So it's, yeah, there's a real kind of strong links there. I wanted to ask you just quickly about how involved do you get? Because I feel like this is a difficult thing to get right. How do we know when we're maybe too involved? We've maybe gone a bit too far. Is there anything we should be looking out for as a manager just to say, “Ah, actually no, this is outside of my remit now”?

Ruth Farenga

I think this is the tightrope. This is absolutely the tightrope that we need to walk, and this also will be about personal style. So you might be really into this kind of thing and really up for having open conversations and really lean into it in a positive way and feel like it's part of who you are. Or you might be like, I'm really not very good at this, and yet I'm noticing this person is supported by other people in the team quite well.

So, you know, as long as someone is supporting them really well. Good. And your role could be more limited. Bottom line is you have to care. You have to be checking in because that's non-negotiable. But you, you know, depending on your style, you may not want to talk about it in great depth. That is okay. Yeah, I think we have to lean into our character a little bit here.

It might involve us having some of our own therapy because sometimes other people's mental health stuff trigger stuff in us and we're like,” Oh, I dunno if I can handle this. You know, because it is kind of flaring up my own issues.” So that can be a signal to us to go and get our own support. I guess the other signal would be in general, about your own mental health.

Like it is very easy as a manager to start taking on everyone's issues and not having enough space for yourself. So this, I think, is where the boundaries come in and thinking about what space is dedicated to that. So the person has some structure in place to know that you're there, but you are not being drowned by yourself because you're engaging in, you know, six people's mental health discussions all at the same time, and it's becoming very involved.

You know that boundary. You are not their friend, you are not their therapist, and you have to decide how deeply you want to support them. Based on what type of leader you are. So, I'm sorry that's not a straight answer.

Adam Lacey

It wasn't a straight question. It was a very difficult question, it’s why I asked it and I guess just on the flip side of what you're saying there you might not be the person that your reportees want to talk to about this stuff either. And there's an element of that as well. Yes. You know, if there's sensitive things and…

Ruth Farenga

Yeah. And they don't have to tell you anything, right? No, exactly. There's no obligation. They can be like, I'm just dealing with some stuff. It's good to know you're here and, and that's it. And that's okay. Right. We have to honour the kind of position for those that don't wanna share too much. Yeah. As long as they know that you're there.

Adam Lacey

It doesn't mean they don't like you as a person or respect you as a manager or anything like that either. You know, I would definitely never take this a personal sleight, but it is just about what is comfortable for that person. And I think as long as you're following the kind of like the golden rules that Ruth is outlining here around allowing the space for them to talk if they want to, around approaching things with kindness around the intent being about, you know, their wellbeing and caring about them, then they will get all that without even needing to have the detailed in-depth conversation with you, and they will feel supported and all the rest of it. So I think that that's another really important point to make.

Ruth Farenga

Exactly. And sometimes you don't have to know all the content. It's like the detail may not be important. It might be how they're relating to it or how they're dealing with themselves.

So I always say to people, share as little or as much as you want. You know, you want tell me everything? Fine. I'm here. Tell me, you know, you've got half hour. Or if you wanna keep this high level, absolutely fine too.

Adam Lacey

Agree. Anything we definitely shouldn't be doing?

Ruth Farenga

I think what you talked earlier about heavy advice-giving and talking too much, you know, think really 80/20. 80% listening, 20% talking max, probably even more, maybe even 90/10.

You know, your role as a listener is probably the most powerful thing you can do. And then you can, yeah, step in with a few things if appropriate, especially if you've got systems within the company that help and be supported more widely.

Adam Lacey

And I'd say that that goes for questions as well. So if you are, you know, a big part of active listening is asking good questions that deepen the conversation but don't ask too many. And, you know, don't overdo it in terms of, you know, this isn't an interrogation.

Ruth Farenga

Yeah, less is more, a hundred percent.

Adam Lacey

I like your 80/20 rule, actually. I feel like that's really a really good one to remember. 80% listening, 20% maybe asking questions, deepening the conversation.

Fantastic. Okay, Ruth, let's summarise, shall we, what are our top points from this lesson?

Ruth Farenga

Yeah, so I think the sort of five-step process if you're having a difficult conversation is important.

So firstly, we really listen to them. We've hammered that home this episode, you know, tune in, check in, and really listen to that step one.

Step two is to reflect back and summarise what you're hearing. So do not underestimate  the importance of them being heard. So really acknowledge what you're hearing. Just expressing the words and having you say them back to them will be really valuable.

Third, ask what they need from you. Is this sort of chat enough? Is that all they need? Or do they want something else? You know, other good questions about the role you can play in supporting them.

The fourth, really look at them with confidence that this will pass. It might be difficult right now. Hone your intention about the possibility that will come out at the end of it and how you believe they'll get through this, whether it takes them two weeks, two months, you know, longer.

And then finally, if you're open to it, share your story if you have one. You know, if you think there's enough openness in that relationship, you can actually break down those barriers through a bit of connection for your own vulnerability. So if you've got a mental health story from the past where you've been through that journey, not the other side, they'll really benefit from that connection about your vulnerabilities too, and it'll make it feel more normal for them.

Adam Lacey

And I guess that's the important bit. The out the other side bit is probably best to be vulnerable and talk about your stories when there's a, not a conclusion necessarily, but when you've been on the journey rather than someone comes to you and says, “I'm having some issues”. And you reflect back them, “Oh my God, I'm having issues too”. Well, don't push it straight back. Yeah, exactly. Fantastic. Really enjoyed chatting about this very difficult and interesting topic. So thank you, Ruth.

That's what we've got time for for this episode. We'll be back soon with another in this Tough Leadership Conversation series. We hope you'll join us then.

You’re a team leader, and you’ve started to notice a change in one of your team members, Jamal.

He’s usually confident and collaborative, but over the last two weeks, he’s seemed distracted and withdrawn. He’s missed a couple of meetings, hasn’t responded to messages as quickly as usual, and was noticeably tense during a team call.

You decide to check in with him during your regular one-to-one. You’re not sure what’s going on—maybe it’s something personal, maybe it’s work-related stress—but you know it’s better to ask than assume. You also want to strike the right balance: you’re his manager, not his therapist, but you want him to know you’re there for him and willing to support him however you can.

1. How can you open this kind of conversation in a way that feels safe and supportive rather than intrusive?
2. If Jamal opens up, how will you hold space for him—especially if what he shares is emotionally heavy or unexpected?
3. How can you establish healthy boundaries for both of you so Jamal feels supported without relying on you as his only outlet?

Conversations on Mental Health as a Leader

Mental health is a workplace concern, not just a personal issue. Managers are not therapists but should provide support and check-ins.

Create psychological safety. Employees need to feel safe to discuss challenges without fear of judgement. Avoid creating a culture where vulnerability is seen as a weakness.

Listen more, talk less (80/20 rule). Reflect back what you hear to ensure employees feel understood.

Watch for changes in behaviour, such as withdrawal, irritability, or lack of confidence. If something seems ‘off’ more than three times, check in.

Create a dedicated 10-15 minute space in one-to-one meetings for mental health check-ins.

Offer support rather than rushing to solutions. Ask, "What do you need from me?"

Maintain healthy boundaries. Encourage professional help when needed and speak about company resources like Employee Assistance Programmes (EAPs).

Lead by example. Normalise mental health discussions by sharing your own experiences when appropriate. Show employees that mental well-being matters at all levels.

(download infographic)